A Mess on the Ladder of Success
That young people coming out of high school can't find decent jobs and employers can't find qualified workers is a serious indictment of our education system, argues Howard Wolfson, head of education programs for Bloomberg Philanthropies, veteran political guy and all-around friend of the pod. Howard joins Bradley for a wide-ranging discussion about how to fix schools. Plus, Howard makes a surprising personal admission about Disney World.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Bradley Tusk [00:00:07] All right. Welcome back to Firewall. I'm Host Bradley Tusk. My guest today is Howard Wolfson. Howard is well known to the listeners of our show, both because we talk about you sometimes on the air and you join us sometimes. So, Howard, thank you for joining us.
Howard Wolfson [00:00:21] Thanks for having me.
Bradley Tusk [00:00:22] A little different context. I think most people know you as a political strategist, communications guru, all that kind of stuff. And actually have you here today in your context as an education policy expert. So a little different than usual. But the way we got into this was, as the listeners know, Howard and I are part of a political consulting text group that very, very frequently exchanges messages. Often like to talk about the issues of the day. And when the Supreme Court affirmative action ruling came up and we were discussing it, Howard and I kind of both made the same case, which is like. Yes, we both support affirmative action. We disagree with the ruling. But the reality is we're talking about a couple thousand people here at a handful of elite schools. This is not really the point. Right. And when you're trying to think about the big issues facing American education today, it's really not Harvard admissions policies. And so that led to a broader discussion of saying, "hey, you know, why don't we talk about what education could and should look like?" So, Howard, your work at Bloomberg, again, everyone kind of knows you as a political guy. What's the education part of your job?
Howard Wolfson [00:01:29] So I guess I have two hats. One, as you pointed out, is sort of the political hack.
Bradley Tusk [00:01:35] I didn't say hack, I said guy.
Howard Wolfson [00:01:37] Yeah, I'll call myself a hack or a recovering hack. So I advise Mike Bloomberg on politics and where he spends his money politically. The other part of my job, which in many respects is more rewarding, I run our education philanthropy. So we're going to spend about $1 billion over the next five years on various education initiatives around the country in K through 12 and in higher education. And I oversee that work for Mike and for Patty Harris at the foundation.
Bradley Tusk [00:02:11] Right. And you also, when you were deputy mayor under Mike, dealt with schools and education quite a bit. So you've kind of seen this from multiple angles at this point.
Howard Wolfson [00:02:19] Yeah, my technical title when I was at City Hall was deputy mayor for communications and governmental relations. But I also had a major kind of interface responsibility with the Department of Education here in New York City. I think under the premise that so much of education policy in New York and really around the country is driven by politics. Right. I think there are some policies that tend to be more objectively determined. But education really is so driven by politics that it kind of made sense for somebody at City hall to be deeply engaged in it from that perspective.
Bradley Tusk [00:03:02] So based on that and also when you were a consultant, did you work for the UFT or just sort of longtime friends with Randi Weingarten?
Howard Wolfson [00:03:10] Both. The firm that I worked for, then Glover Park, which has gone through several different iterations.
Bradley Tusk [00:03:18] What's it called now?
Howard Wolfson [00:03:19] I don't know. Actually. It's been acquired and has acquired others and has a different name. Still doing great work, I'm sure. But when I was there, the UFT was a client.
Bradley Tusk [00:03:31] Yeah.
Howard Wolfson [00:03:32] And I got to know Randi Weingarten, who's the president of the UFT, in that capacity, and have remained, I would say, friends with her. I have a lot of respect for her. I think she is a genuinely good person. She has become kind of the Bete Noire of Republican conservatives. They've really kind of gone after her. But I like her. I don't agree with her on a lot of education policies, but I think that she is a genuinely committed person.
Bradley Tusk [00:04:02] Right. So you've seen this from, arguably, as someone who was not actually a teacher or principal or anything like that, you've seen it from the government side, you've seen it from the union side and you've seen it from the philanthropic side.
Howard Wolfson [00:04:15] I would just add, which is really important, actually, it didn't really occur to me until I began doing this work, my own personal history with it. So I come from a really big family of teachers. My mom was a teacher, my dad was a teacher, my stepmother was a teacher, my stepsister was a teacher, and three of my aunts were teachers. So I didn't become a teacher. But in some sense that is kind of in my blood. And I remember really distinctly my mom coming home after a day of teaching in the South Bronx in the seventies, which was not a very easy place to teach at that time. Being on the phone every night with parents of her students, talking to them about the kids. And so her job in many respects never stopped. She was really deeply committed to it. And so I have a lot of respect, admiration, and I think some degree of personal knowledge of what it takes to be a teacher, what it means to be a teacher.
Bradley Tusk [00:05:15] So given all of that, then so basically since birth, you've been sort of thinking about this issue. Hard question, but simple. What works and what doesn't work?
Howard Wolfson [00:05:28] Well, I'm glad we have a long time to talk about it today.
Bradley Tusk [00:05:30] This is a nine hour podcast.
Howard Wolfson [00:05:32] It's that special multi-part podcast on education policy in the United States. You know, I think we should start out by saying something that folks who are against education reform say to make the case against reform, but is at least somewhat true, which is the most important thing, I think, in determining a kid's outcome is where a kid comes from. I mean, there has to be a reality check around the fact that many kids are walking into schools, coming from impoverished families that don't themselves have a history of education that may not be intact in any real way. We have a big problem of homeless students in this city and in other places. We have many students who come from multigenerational poverty, whose families get evicted from homes every three or four or five or six months, who are switching schools. If you could wave a wand and eliminate poverty in this country, you would go a long way towards improving educational outcomes. So I just think we have to concede.
Bradley Tusk [00:06:40] Yeah, I hope to me you obviously. Yes. I mean, obviously it's hard to argue what you just said, but the opponents of education reform, in my experience, love to say something along the lines of we can't solve education until you solve poverty. Like you're never going to fully solve poverty around like with what I'm doing with school meals. Everyone is trying different ways, right? So it just seems to me that it's this blanket excuse to avoid any accountability for results.
Howard Wolfson [00:07:02] Couldn't agree more. I mean, I think you have to acknowledge that poverty is a huge problem. Multigenerational poverty, all kinds of family dislocation is a huge problem. And then you have to say, however, while we are attempting to deal with those challenges in different policy realms, we still have to improve the lives of kids in the here and now. And there are things that we can do from the moment that they walk in the school to the moment that they come home at night or when they graduate, that will meaningfully impact their lives. But I think it's important to at least acknowledge that there are things that happen outside the school for sure, that are probably more important than things that happen inside the school.
Bradley Tusk [00:07:38] So given that in the world that we live in today, right, some policies work better than others based on everything you've seen, what do you like and what do you know?
Howard Wolfson [00:07:47] Right. Well, so I kind of imagine that we that I gave myself a wand, right? Yes. The magic wand that Bradley has kind of conjured up this morning.
Bradley Tusk [00:07:56] It's a special firewall power.
Howard Wolfson [00:07:59] And we're going to apply it to education policy today. I think the most important determinant in a kid's future trajectory outside of the home once they're in the classroom is the quality of the teacher. I've seen all kinds of studies to show that a great teacher can have an enormous impact on a kid, and a bad teacher can have a very, very negative impact on a kid. So if I was imagining education policy from the ground up in this country, I would pay teachers massively more money to do their jobs. Now, I would give them significant raises in exchange for a set of changes to their work rules that many unions would not like.
Bradley Tusk [00:08:47] Sure. So what will be your deal?
Howard Wolfson [00:08:49] First of all, I think you you would have to have some degree of differentiated pay. Right now, a pay is based on the amount of educational attainment you have as a teacher. You get paid more if you have a master's degree in many places than not. And it is based on seniority. You get a certain amount of money each year based on that your time in the system. I think you would have to say that we're going to begin to look at quality in determining some amount of pay structure just like you do or we do in the private sector. You've got to begin to reward better teachers for doing a better job.
Bradley Tusk [00:09:29] Why do K-through-12 teachers who are typically not producing academic scholarship need tenure?
Howard Wolfson [00:09:34] That would be another thing I would I would change. That is a vestige of of a McCarthy era fight around the deep politicization of of schools now. You know, you could argue that our schools have become once again deeply, deeply politicized. And so maybe you could very you could possibly make the argument.
Bradley Tusk [00:10:01] If a New York state public school teacher was rabidly pro-Trump. Would the UFT actually publicly really go to great lengths to defend this person?
Howard Wolfson [00:10:11] Yeah, I think they would, actually. I'm just on the principle. But but I think the reality is that that tenure is now serves as a mechanism for bad teachers to remain in the system. It is not it is not really protecting teachers free speech rights or political rights. It is. And I think there are ways that you can do that beyond tenure. Right. You could change the law to provide some protections for speech in politics, political activity for teachers without basically giving them blanket immunity for potential incompetence.
Bradley Tusk [00:10:45] Right. Is the rubber room a real thing?
Howard Wolfson [00:10:48] The rubber room is a real thing. It is not really rubber.
Bradley Tusk [00:10:51] What's it more like? A kind of plasterboard?
Howard Wolfson [00:10:54] It's just kind of a it looks like, a waystation to help. Actually, it's not. They're not particularly attractive places. Bradley brings up the rubber room, which was when Mike was mayor. He made a decision that if you. If you were a teacher who couldn't teach, you, really couldn't teach. You have all sorts of issues teaching. And the city was unable to fire you because of the the laws around tenure and other things. We basically pulled you out of the classroom. I mean, we basically made a decision that even if we couldn't fire you, we weren't going to put you in front of kids. And so we created this room called the Rubber Room, where teachers who really couldn't teach but we couldn't fire went. And some of them in one day after day after day, year after year, we tried to diminish the number of of teachers who were in there. We talked about buyouts and other types of things. But my guess is it still exists. But it's a good example of how the system knows often who bad teachers are, right. I mean, I've talked to my parents about this. The teachers know who the bad teachers are.
Bradley Tusk [00:12:03] But you think most teachers want to protect the bad teachers? Or is this just effectively kind of like the problem of the rest of our politics, which is a handful of loud, active voices dictate everything?
Howard Wolfson [00:12:14] I think it's a little bit of a mix. I think that there are certainly some good teachers who look at a teacher who is struggling and think there but for the grace of God, go I. We don't want to get rid of that person. But I think most teachers recognize that if you can't do the job, you shouldn't be in the building. Now, how many years you should have a grace period, what kind of training you should get. I mean, these are important kinds of questions. Yeah, I don't think you want to fire somebody in year one, but I do believe that you need to pay teachers more. You basically need to incentivize students in college to look at teaching as a meaningful alternative to medical school or law school. There are some countries where students look at teaching.
Bradley Tusk [00:12:56] Like what? Scandinavian countries?
Howard Wolfson [00:13:00] It's always Scandinavia. You need to basically incentivize the best and the brightest to go into teaching. You need to pay teachers more who are currently in the profession, but you basically then need to say, okay, we're going to pay you a lot more money, but we're going to expect that you are going to act like professionals in the way that other professionals act differentiated pay. You're going to make it easier to fire people who aren't doing the job.
Bradley Tusk [00:13:24] So make the case, okay, so now we're going to increase the education budget, which means taxes are probably going to go up to pay for that, right? Yeah. Make the case to me why, long term, both the taxpayers and the economy are better off paying teachers more now as opposed to the price we pay down the road.
Howard Wolfson [00:13:42] Well, I'll make I'll make a political argument that I would make in the short term, which is if I were a governor or a mayor — or advising I'll never be a governor or mayor — if I was advising a governor or mayor, which is probably more realistic and I was trying to sort of advise them in how to sell a deal like this, more money for teachers for a set of different work rules. I would go out and I would say to the public, we're going to pay teachers more. These are your friends, these are your neighbors, These are your kids. But at the same time, we're going to expect more from them. We're going to demand more from them, and we will get a better set of results because of that and because we're getting a better set of results. Our state, our city will do better in the long run, not even in the long run. I don't think you have to wait 20 years to see the results. I think you have to wait to look at a high school class or a class of kids going from elementary school into high school. I think there is no question that if you improve the schools in any given jurisdiction, you create a healthier economy. You create a place where businesses want to relocate, businesses want to start, and it creates a virtuous cycle. But I think you could sell that to the public. We're going to have to pay a little bit more, but we're going to get a lot more in return.
Bradley Tusk [00:14:59] So if I remember that correctly, teacher pay under Mike Bloomberg went up by 43%. Did that result? That's a big jump? Did it result in meaningful outcomes?
Howard Wolfson [00:15:11] It did actually. You know, we have a problem now in the system in New York City, where we've got a lot of kids who've left the system. Right. So it's a different system today than it was when Mike left office.
Bradley Tusk [00:15:19] And they left for what reasons?
Howard Wolfson [00:15:21] I think some of it was the pandemic. I think that you had families leaving New York City, period. Families with young kids, I think especially were more likely to leave. And I think some of it is that when I talk to parents now who are navigating the system, the uncertainty around placement is really profound. So if you send your kid to private school in New York and the kid starts in kindergarten or pre-K, you know exactly where that kid is going to wind up 12 years later, assuming the kid doesn't get thrown out. If you start New York City public schools in kindergarten, you have no idea where your kids are going to go to middle school and you have no idea where they're going to go in high school. And for some parents, that is profoundly destabilizing. And not being able to guarantee kind of a quality education for your kid. Knowing that your kid's going to go to a decent school is a real problem. And I think people leave the system as a result of it. They don't want to deal with the uncertainty. They don't want to apply to 12 schools and get your 12th choice.
Bradley Tusk [00:16:29] So this is a little bit of a crazy idea. I remember one time and I'll stop reminiscing about the Bloomberg world shortly, but I was in a meeting when Mike was mayor with Mike and Randall Stephenson at the time, was the CEO of AT&T. And Mike said to Randall, What's your biggest business problem? And Randall said, I can't get enough trained workforce. Right? What if you had a world, and we'll get into sort of vocational education in a minute, but where if you said to Randall Stephenson, who's not a city resident but let's say he were, "Okay, Randall, you're really rich. You're going to pay more money in local taxes, but it's going to be, you know, a better outcome for the city that you live in long term." He very well may say, "Yeah, you'll waste the fucking money just like you do everything else. I'm not paying." Right? If you said, "Randall, we will create an AT&T high school in New York City. You tell us the skills people need to have you funded and you guarantee jobs, and we will provide people with this training." Could that work?
Howard Wolfson [00:17:28] Yeah. I mean, so the answer to that is I'd give Randall a better deal. I would say we'll create one of these high schools and the city will fund it. All you have to do is tell us what kind of training you need to give the kids and agree to come in to assist the schools and give that training. One of the challenges in setting up a high school like that is, you know, understandably, most teachers in the New York City school system are not in a position to train kids to go work for AT&T. In terms of the very specific technical skills you would need to go work for AT&T. So the people who work for AT&T now would need to be willing and able to come into the school to train those kids. I believe that in terms of vocational education. And so let's switch topics a little bit, although we're still talking about K 12. Yeah, we're actually talking about really 9-12 high school. I think school systems should be encouraging businesses, soliciting businesses, large employers in the city to basically partner with high schools in the deepest possible way to identify the skills that are needed for kids in those schools, when they graduate, to come out and work for an AT&T or a Con Edison or pick your company.
Bradley Tusk [00:18:50] And politically, that should be fine, would the UFT object to that?
Howard Wolfson [00:18:53] So, you know, we had a lot of battles with Michael Mulgrew, who's the current head of the union here in New York City, but he actually comes from a career tech background. I think he is supportive of this, I don't think it really hurt his members. No, I don't think there would be a major challenge in terms of the union, although God knows, given how big the contract is, there may be some issues that, you know, around work rules or those types of things. But having said that, the model that you've just set out, which in fact is a model that we are trying to create at Bloomberg, is not something that has really been done at all in this country.
Bradley Tusk [00:19:34] So talk about the work that you guys are doing.
Howard Wolfson [00:19:36] So you you hit upon the AT&T example. I think you're absolutely right that what you need to do is identify a major employer, if not the biggest employer in any given municipality, an employer with real history that is likely going to be around for 10, 20, 30, 40 years based on the track record and the trajectory, a position an employer that has many unfilled positions. So there is, you know, a lot of opportunity for kids to come in and work. And you have to go to that employer and say, okay, we are going to go in, we're going to create a high school, you're going to have the deepest possible partnership with this high school. You are going to tell us what skills you need to graduate kids so that they can come work for you. Your people, the people who currently work for you are going to come in, are going to be allowed to come in and teach the kids those skills in addition to the other kinds of English and literature and language and math that kids are learning in addition to the workplace kind of education. And we at Bloomberg our pitch is: We're going to de-risk that for you. We're going to put the upfront money and all you basically need to do is tell us what kind of curricula you need and supply the people to help.
Bradley Tusk [00:21:02] Are you guys going to pay to build schools?
Howard Wolfson [00:21:04] In some cases, you don't really actually need to build a school; there are buildings that exist. Yeah, you may do some retrofitting or those types of things. We are trying to do that with hospitals, right? So hospitals in many places in this country are the single biggest employer. They are places that have, in many cases, thousands of unfilled positions. Currently, you cannot get enough nurses, you cannot get enough techs, you cannot get enough phlebotomists, the people that draw blood, they are completely unable to staff adequately and appropriately for their current levels. And so we basically have gone to a couple of dozen different cities, a couple of a couple of dozen different hospitals in those cities, pitched them on this idea, said, we're going to help pay for this upfront. We're going to pair the hospital with a school, in some cases a charter school. In some cases, it's a more traditional district school. And you're going to come in and you're going to form this model. We are in the RFP process now.
Bradley Tusk [00:22:12] Are you getting a lot of applications?
Howard Wolfson [00:22:13] A lot.
Bradley Tusk [00:22:16] Who is it? Is it the city bringing the school and the hospital together as the applicant? How does it work?
Howard Wolfson [00:22:21] It depends on the municipality. In some cases they're walking in the door to us, partnership formed.
Bradley Tusk [00:22:27] Yeah. Which must give them an advantage.
Howard Wolfson [00:22:29] Yeah. In some cases we helped kind of create the marriage. Like we hospital was interested. We knew of a school that was interested or the school district was interested. I believe that this will be the most important thing that I've ever worked on in my career.
Bradley Tusk [00:22:47] So and I imagine SEIU, they were involved too, because it seemed like it's good for them as well, right?
Howard Wolfson [00:22:52] Yeah, We haven't actually done one in New York City yet.
Bradley Tusk [00:22:55] They're the hospital union.
Howard Wolfson [00:22:56] They're the hospital union here.
Bradley Tusk [00:22:58] So tell me why it's the most important thing, because you have worked on a lot of stuff, of course, your career. And give us a sense of if this works at scale, what does it mean?
Howard Wolfson [00:23:06] Well, I think you take a step back. Why is it the most important thing? It's the most important thing because 50% of the people in this country aren't going to college and they are graduating high school into jobs that are not providing them meaningful pathways into a middle class life. So we talked about teacher quality. We talked about the reform of sort of work rules. We have a huge problem in this country in that basically the system is geared towards graduating kids into college. And if you don't go to college, the system kind of washes its hands of you. You know, they basically say, you know, goodbye and good luck, and then you can go work in a retail job that really does not provide a ladder into any sort of a meaningful future. From an earnings perspective, that's a tremendous failure for kids. It's a tremendous failure for society. And so we need to do something, in my view, radically different in order to impact more outcomes for those kids who are not going to college. This is a way to do that. It is a way to basically take a cohort of kids who might not otherwise be college bound, who might otherwise be graduating into jobs that would not pay them a meaningful wage and put them in situations where they can basically have a ladder into the middle class that they would not otherwise have had. And we should be doing this with hospitals. To your point, we should be doing with AT&T, we should be doing it with other large employers. We're going to start with hospitals because in many respects, from my perspective, it's the most obvious because, again, huge employer, lots of open positions, durable. Hospitals aren't going away, hard to outsource a lot of those jobs. I believe that if we are successful in this, every hospital in America is going to want to partner with a school in ten years and you will create, at scale, a meaningful set of pathways for kids who otherwise would be in much more perilous situations.
Bradley Tusk [00:25:11] And so there's something like 50 million K-through-12 kids in this country? So half go to college, half don't. Of the 25 million who don't, if you had this system in place, what percentage can you capture?
Howard Wolfson [00:25:25] I mean, it's a really good question. I have not actually done the math in that way, in part because we're starting so small.
Bradley Tusk [00:25:31] Yeah, of course.
Howard Wolfson [00:25:33] I do believe that healthcare is the most obvious example of where this would work initially. But I think you start out with, let's say a half a dozen or a dozen examples of hospitals where this is working. Every hospital is going to want one. You start out with a couple of hospitals with a half a dozen or a dozen hospitals. Other large employers in those cities will want to do this as well. And. So, you know, you're never you're never going to be able to help every single kid. That's just not realistic in jobs of how life works. Can't do everything for everyone. But I believe that this is the best chance. Something like this is the best chance that we have to end this kind of cycle of neglect of kids who are not college bound.
Bradley Tusk [00:26:21] Are there countries that do this well that are not Scandinavia?
Howard Wolfson [00:26:24] Yes, Germany, France, Germany does this well. Germany doesn't do it exactly like this. And they have a different kind of social compact model around what society expects of employers to do for kids. But Germany does a version of this that I think we ought to be trying to emulate to some extent in an American context.
Bradley Tusk [00:26:48] So take the other 25 million kids who are going to college right now. There is this sort of assumption that if you're in a certain economic status, you should absolutely go to college, that everyone should have a, you know, liberal arts four year degree. And the benefit of that is so significant that no matter what career they pursue, it's a worthwhile endeavor. You agree with that or not?
Howard Wolfson [00:27:13] I think from a macro perspective, the data suggests that that's correct. Like, college is a pretty big accelerant for the average kid in terms of their earnings. And the difference between what you can earn with a college degree and what you don't is significant. Now, I think if we improve the pathways for kids who are not college bound, that becomes less true. In Germany, there's actually less of this kind of distinction between people who go to university and people who don't from an economic perspective and a class perspective. So if we create better outcomes for kids who are not college bound, that becomes less true. But I think today, if you were advising a kid, given the system as it is, you probably are suggesting if they're looking to maximize their earnings, that they're going to college.
Bradley Tusk [00:28:04] If you could take the one that I gave you earlier and kind of remake colleges as well, would it be the same system? Or maybe I would argue that you have tons of people going into massive debt, getting degrees and things that don't really adequately prepare them for the workforce?
Howard Wolfson [00:28:21] Yeah, I mean, I think I think we've got to look at college in a couple of different ways. There are, let's say, a couple of hundred elite schools. You know, they're not obviously all in the Ivy League, but there are a couple of hundred schools in this country that if you can get into, probably make sense to go take out some debt because they act as pretty significant accelerant for lifetime earnings. Hmm. There are many more colleges that are private in this country that don't really do that, that kids are taking out a lot of debt and they don't see an adequate return. And I think, in fact, families are kind of seeing this. At some point, college did...the two, in my view, the two most successful marketers in the postwar era were the folks selling homeownership and the folks selling a college education. This was not the case before World War Two. Since World War two, it has become the default. Everybody should be going to college. And a lot of colleges don't particularly serve kids. They've kind of sprung up in this era where everyone was supposed to go to school, kids take out massive amounts of debt, and they don't really get a good return for their money. I think a way to deal with that again, I think you create much better options and pathways for kids who are not college bound so that kids who wouldn't be going to college now have better outcomes. And kids who might be going to college now because they feel like they have to could look at that and say, Oh, I don't have to now. I don't have to take four years of my life and, you know, $50,000 a year or whatever it is, I can actually go to a different kind of high school with a different set of learnings and get a job and propel myself that way. So I think that if you create a different high school model and a different way of educating kids who are not college bound, you will help solve that problem. One thing that we should be doing is having summer school for every kid in the country, certainly every kid who is struggling with learning loss coming out of the pandemic. And I think, unfortunately, that's. Many, if not most, kids in this country. The data on the learning loss from the pandemic is obvious. It's clear test scores have gone down across the board in every state in the country. And the kids who are most impacted adversely are kids you would imagine poor kids, kids who are already struggling took a real hit during the pandemic. And as it turns out, one of the ways to help them is for them to be in school more often. So you could extend school hours, you could have extra tutoring after school. But school during the summer is a really effective and important way to make up for the learning loss that these kids experience. And I think unless we take some very dramatic steps, we will never be able to help these kids catch up. Federal government did provide some money for summer school, but they didn't really give a lot of guidance or direction. A lot of places have chosen not to implement summer school. Some parents don't like it, although many do. Teachers unions are not huge fans. The system really isn't built to accommodate it. It's we have this antiquated schedule built around the agrarian model. There was a school district in Richmond that tried to effectuate it. They were only able to do it in a couple of places. So this is one of those areas where philanthropy can step in and make a real impact. We, and by we I mean Mike, funded summer school for, or made summer school programming available, for every charter school in New York City. Most of them took him up on the offer. Last summer they had a summer school for kids in New York. It was very successful. We tested the kids on the way in and the way out. They actually made progress, so much so that we have extended the program to half a dozen other cities around the country. And as we speak, we've got tens of thousands of kids in summer school around the country trying to make up for the learning loss that they experienced during the pandemic. I feel really good about this. Mike talks about it in the op ed, but it's something that really should be done at scale everywhere, not just in the places where one philanthropy can engage and make an impact.
Bradley Tusk [00:33:30] And, you know, do you think it generally does matter where you go to college? I mean, I have and we've discussed this before, argue that I think it actually is a highly overrated thing and it's not that important. But I could also see how you could take my view and say that's just the product of an ultra, ultra privileged perspective where you're able to like, go to these schools succeed and then say, "Well, I don't see the correlation. I don't think it's really that important." You have a daughter starting college in a couple of months, right? How important do you think it is?
Howard Wolfson [00:34:01] I think it's important that she gets a good education and has a good experience. I think that there are lots of colleges that she could have gone to that would have provided that. I think where college actually makes an enormous difference is for kids who are really from the lowest socioeconomic cohort. And if you have a kid in that cohort who is going to an elite school, it's like a rocket boost. Those kids are really benefiting from the social connections they're making, from the education they're getting from all of the supports that are around them. Yes, for those kids, it actually does make a huge difference. Now, as an employer, you may say. I don't make any distinction between a kid who goes to Harvard and a kid who may go to, you know, a state school. Right. But as it turns out, most employers do make those kinds of distinctions. And for poor kids who go to elite schools, it's a huge, huge, huge advantage.
Bradley Tusk [00:34:59] So online school, we know that building schools is an unbelievably expensive, cumbersome process, especially in union jurisdictions. And we know that communicating out doesn't necessarily require two people to be in the same physical room to do so. At the same time, all of us who are parents experienced online school during COVID. And I think the universal verdict is a fucking disaster, right?
Howard Wolfson [00:35:29] I think that was the technical term for it
Bradley Tusk [00:35:35] So given that, it still seems to me conceptually that you have this tool in the internet that could have the ability to help deliver better educational outcomes and take the money that we spend in, let's say, rather than putting it into building maintenance, we can put it into teacher pay or whatever it is. And yet the actual anecdotal experience that we all had was the opposite of it. Is it just because it was a global pandemic, everything was fucked up? Or do you think the theory of online learning and the reality are just too different?
Howard Wolfson [00:36:08] Yes, to both. I mean, I think everything was fucked up. It was a global pandemic. The school systems were not prepared to teach. Virtually nobody had really any training in how to do it. Teachers weren't good at it. Students weren't engaged. It was not a good situation overall. But there are lots of things that went wrong during the pandemic that was one of them. I also I'm kind of old school on this. Maybe this goes back to the fact that, you know, I come from this family of teachers. I think having a human being in a room with a bunch of kids is actually a good model for helping kids learn. And I don't believe the kids learn particularly well when they're looking at a screen. I just think that the ways in which they interact with screens now, every other part of their life is not actually how you would want a kid to interact if they were trying to be taught something.
Bradley Tusk [00:36:52] So now go to your vocational higher ed kind of replacement. Would you still say that you need, even for a 20 year old, them to be on a physical campus or if they could receive the instruction at a fraction of the cost online, would you do it?
Howard Wolfson [00:37:08] Well, I mean, part of the challenge there probably is that a lot of the things that you're training the kids for require hands on. So you can't virtually teach a kid to draw blood.
Bradley Tusk [00:37:19] Right. But arguably you could mean, use your classroom space much more efficiently by determining what has to be in person and what doesn't.
Howard Wolfson [00:37:26] Yeah. I mean, look, I think that there will hopefully be a lot of different models. People will experiment with different ways of doing this. My view is I think you need to get the kids in a room and you need to have a human being teaching them.
Bradley Tusk [00:37:39] Education reform: So there was a big moment, you and I were heavily involved in it, you know, around a decade ago or more. And you saw all of this progress and movement towards charter schools, toward sort of, you know, getting differentiated teachers, all this other stuff. And it seems to have really faded. Did it or am I just focused on other things in my life now? And if it did, what happened?
Howard Wolfson [00:38:06] I think that you're certainly right that when President Obama was in the White House, he was a champion of these kinds of reforms. His education secretary, Arne Duncan, was a champion of these kinds of reforms. The largest school system in the country, New York City, was run by a reformer, Mike Bloomberg. His chancellor was Joel Klein, a real reformer. So there was kind of this moment during the Obama presidency where these ideas were ascendant. And I think that there was a kind of a counterattack that the union led and it had some degree of success. Having said that, if you look at, for instance, the market share of charter schools in this country, which is not the end all be all of reform, but it's certainly one thing that reformers point to as an alternative to a failing system. The market share of charters has gone up every year, goes up every year. And that was true during the Obama administration. It was true during the Trump administration. It has been true during the Biden administration. So with if you look at that kind of metric, reform is continuing. But in other places, I think that the politics of it has become more difficult.
Bradley Tusk [00:39:17] So Eric Adams, our mayor in New York City, New York City schools, you have been an adviser to his city hall times. How is he doing on education?
Howard Wolfson [00:39:28] I think we would still say grade incomplete.
Bradley Tusk [00:39:31] Okay.
Howard Wolfson [00:39:32] You know, I think honestly, I think the jury is still out.
Bradley Tusk [00:39:36] Well, there was a huge teachers union contract. I think it was actually signed yesterday. The kinds of reforms that you were talking about earlier to say we will trade more money for positivity. Did you see any of those?
Howard Wolfson [00:39:49] I did not.
Bradley Tusk [00:39:50] So why do you think he chose to just give this all away?
Howard Wolfson [00:39:54] Oh, I think it's that for the average politician, it's easier to just give money in a contract and not really ask for anything in return.
Bradley Tusk [00:40:05] So you're a charter school advocate on the political side. And I think a lot of charter school advocates on the political side in New York City thought Eric Adams would be their candidate, poured millions and millions of millions of dollars of his campaign. Doesn't seem like the ROI has been there. Or what's your assessment?
Howard Wolfson [00:40:20] Well, we actually are going to get more charter schools in this state than we did last year thanks to the state budget. The governor actually did make some progress on behalf of kids in this regard. And there will be more charters in New York this coming year than last year, thanks to the budget, thanks to her leadership and her advocacy. You know, I think that Mayor Adams has been less hostile to charters than Bill de Blasio. In terms of co-locations, In particular, Success Academies led by Eva Moskowitz, used to have knock out drag out fights with Bill de Blasio around co-locations was really not able to get co-located. She has been able to be co-located under Mayor Adams. So I think you've seen some modest improvements over the past administration. It's not you know, it's not the Bloomberg era on education.
Bradley Tusk [00:41:20] So what mayors are good on education?
Howard Wolfson [00:41:24] You know, I look at education, I kind of actually look at governors more than mayors. And I, I look at a place like Tennessee where you have had a succession of both Democratic and Republican governors who have basically sustained this kind of reform agenda, more money for schools, more money for teachers in exchange for a series of work reforms and the results in Tennessee.
Bradley Tusk [00:41:51] The test scores are there.
Howard Wolfson [00:41:52] They've gone off the charts.
Bradley Tusk [00:41:53] And the college preparedness absolutely is.
Howard Wolfson [00:41:56] All. Yeah. Now. Now, a lot of good things are happening economically in Tennessee. In addition, Nashville is obviously booming, but it's not just Nashville. Colorado is another place where a succession of governors have basically been.
Bradley Tusk [00:42:08] Pro-reform.
Howard Wolfson [00:42:10] And didn't Mike Johnson just win the mayoralty?
Howard Wolfson [00:42:12] And Mike Johnson who was at was and is an education reformer just won the mayoral election in Denver. And so you know those are I would point to Louisiana as another example. Louisiana is not necessarily a place where —
Bradley Tusk [00:42:28] No but in fairness, a Bloomberg acolyte, John White, our friend was the person who created most of the polices that you're praising right now.
Howard Wolfson [00:42:33] Yeah. Even a place like Mississippi, which was written about in The New York Times as a kind of an example of where good things are happening in an unlikely place. So there are examples of where progress is being made statewide over a period of some years. You know, we have our wand, but obviously in the real world, it takes years and years and years and years, if not multiple administrations, in order to really move the needle.
Bradley Tusk [00:43:03] So you mentioned that Obama supported that reform. Bush had No Child Left Behind. But is there a Biden education ideology?
Howard Wolfson [00:43:12] Yeah, throw money at the problem.
Bradley Tusk [00:43:14] So that's it. So they've increased spending just through general appropriations, but there's not like either...it seemed like Bush and Obama had and they weren't maybe totally dissimilar, similar but specific views as to we have a broken system, here's how we can fix it.
Howard Wolfson [00:43:28] So I would urge folks to go to The Wall Street Journal. They can read Mike Bloomberg on this topic. He has an op-ed on the topic of education reform that just came out where he basically says that Democrats are throwing money at the problem and not asking for anything in exchange. And Republicans are basically overly politicizing the schools, focusing on all of these culture issues when in fact the problems are far more profound.
Bradley Tusk [00:43:55] It must be nice for you to have Mike back in the position where he could just point out why both parties are wrong about everything as opposed to trying to fit into a party.
Howard Wolfson [00:44:02] I mean, it's nice that he is able to say what he believes.
Bradley Tusk [00:44:06] Yeah. So let's pivot to politics real fast. We just brought up Biden. You're not known for your optimism. I think people would really say that about you. And you are as sort of astute and engage politically as anyone I know. Give me how worried are you about 2024 and what's your outlook?
Howard Wolfson [00:44:29] You're right. I'm not known for my optimism. And I am worried because I think that our democracy once again is in the balance. Yeah, and it's exhausting. I don't think you want it. No healthy democracy keeps having election after election in which many people worry it could be the last one. It's just not...It's a destabilizing reality in and of itself, regardless of the outcome. It's not a healthy place for democracy to be. I think Donald Trump is going to be the Republican nominee.
Bradley Tusk [00:45:01] Regardless of what happens in the trials?
Howard Wolfson [00:45:04] You know, it's hard to predict, right? I don't know if we have a wand. I don't know if we have a crystal ball. I guess if we knew exactly what was going to happen with the trials and how many different indictments he was going to get, I think he's going to be the Republican nominee. I think Joe Biden is going to be the Democratic nominee. I think Joe Biden will win again because people will basically decide that for whatever they don't like about Joe Biden, it is better to entrust the country to somebody who is not actually a threat to democracy. But it will be an ugly, difficult, dispiriting process in which people are not left feeling particularly good about America.
Bradley Tusk [00:45:38] So a few wild card things. And you tell me, are these like just our political consultant texts? They're out of like five very neurotic, middle aged Jewish men worrying or are these real concerns? One would be Kamala Harris. So usually the vice president really just doesn't impact the election one way or another. But given Biden's age and given her unpopularity, are there people who will choose not to vote for Biden because they feel like they're therefore voting for Harris and they don't want to vote for her?
Howard Wolfson [00:46:05] Maybe. Although it's quite possible that Donald Trump chooses a vice president who is.
Bradley Tusk [00:46:09] Who the fuck knows who.
Howard Wolfson [00:46:11] Is far worse?
Bradley Tusk [00:46:12] Yes, that's definitely true. Arizona No Labels, right? So I don't think it was a separate Josh and I texted thread about yesterday, apart.
Howard Wolfson [00:46:22] You're having text on the side Bradley?
Bradley Tusk [00:46:24] Yeah. And once in a while you and I text one side sometimes. And Josh was worrying about No Labels having a third party candidate in Arizona and Biden losing Arizona and therefore losing the election. How worried are you about that?
Howard Wolfson [00:46:37] I'm worried about it. I think that the prospect of a third party is a wild card that we don't need at a time where democracy hangs in the balance. So I think it's a pretty, pretty bad idea.
Bradley Tusk [00:46:50] Now, if you were No Labels or the Forward Party and you trying to get ballot lines, the things I've suggested to both of them, neither of them love, this suggestion, was if Trump is not the nominee, give him your lines and split the ticket or if Trump is the nominee, but someone else with like DeSantis did okay, and they're willing to take it, give them your lines. Right? That would actually use a third party line to help get to the right better outcome.
Howard Wolfson [00:47:15] Except they don't. They have decided somehow in the world that they live in a Joe Biden is the equal of Donald Trump, which is, in my view, insane. But that seems to be what they believe.
Bradley Tusk [00:47:26] So it's funny what I don't I don't know the No Labels people that well, I know that Andrew and the Forward Party people obviously pretty well I don't think they would articulate that in a conversation but I think you're right, if they choose to run someone that's not someone meant to split the vote with Trump, then yes, I think it sort of effectively kind of lands in that place. Let's just play the parlor game that if Biden today decided, I've had enough or he gets hit by a bus or whatever it is, who would you like to be the nominee?
Howard Wolfson [00:48:01] Probably Whitmer.
Bradley Tusk [00:48:03] Why?
Howard Wolfson [00:48:04] Because she has successfully governed in a swing Midwestern state with lots of voters that we need to win over.
Bradley Tusk [00:48:16] Two more possibilities that you would be okay with.
Howard Wolfson [00:48:27] I don't know. Are we going to edit out the long pause?
Bradley Tusk [00:48:32] In some ways, you probably just answered the question. So I'm going to pivot to a final topic, which has nothing to do with education or politics. But one of your obsessions is Disney. You have even been known to say, although I don't actually believe you, that your dream would be to retire and work on the Jungle Cruise ride in Orlando at Disney.
Howard Wolfson [00:48:55] That is exactly correct.
Bradley Tusk [00:48:57] That's right. One, don't buy it. But two, although I do. It's funny, when I go to Disney, I always sort of text Howard, especially if I do go to the Jungle Cruise and I forgot I was at Disney a couple of weeks ago and thought about you but didn't do it. And I felt badly about that so I apologize for you not getting a text of proof that I was on the Jungle Cruise ride.
Howard Wolfson [00:49:17] Did you enjoy it?
Bradley Tusk [00:49:19] It's okay. You know, it's funny. So it's a —
Howard Wolfson [00:49:22] Imagine. Imagine I'm your skipper.
Bradley Tusk [00:49:24] It would be much better. Yeah, radically. But the problem is, there's a script. I mean, you're not allowed to deviate from the script.
Howard Wolfson [00:49:29] They have some degree of leeway.
Bradley Tusk [00:49:30] Okay, because with the leeway, you could see how maybe you improve. But it seems to me a lot of the corny jokes they're forced to make are not probably of their own.
Howard Wolfson [00:49:41] I like those jokes.
Bradley Tusk [00:49:43] So the Journal article today I sent it to you. Talking about Disney theme park attendance being down. Why do you think that is? And based on your own experience as a frequent park goer, has the experience worsened in some way?
Howard Wolfson [00:50:02] I wonder actually if the sort of the political fights that Disney has become embroiled in has had an impact on park attendance? I don't I don't know that. I'm sure they know it, but they definitely, their brand has become politicized in ways that they would never have wanted. And I have to believe that at least on the margins, it's having an impact. I mean, one of the things I like about Disney World, I've always liked about Disney World, is that it is one of the few places in America where you can go and feel like you're surrounded by Americans from everywhere rich, poor, middle class, northeast, southwest, etc., Republican and Democrat. And if that is changing, if sort of red state America has soured a little bit on Disney, that might have an impact on park attendance. You know, I think they raised their prices a little bit. And I imagine obviously there is some degree of price sensitivity. You know, if park attendance, I imagine if you're Disney is not the sole thing that you look at. Right. You're obviously looking at revenue. Right. And so if they have increased the amount that you pay to be there and as a result.
Bradley Tusk [00:51:15] And charge more for the turkey legs...
Howard Wolfson [00:51:17] And you charge more for the turkey legs and the attendance has gone down, but you're still making more money, that's okay. I mean, I would argue that there were times where I was there that it was so crowded that it was uncomfortable. And so basically it...
Bradley Tusk [00:51:29] Actually when I was at Disneyland, it was pretty crowded. And I didn't notice it not being full.
Howard Wolfson [00:51:36] You know, they have done lots of different things over the years to provide opportunities for people to go in at odd hours, so to speak, really early in the morning, really late at night, because it's really crowded.
Bradley Tusk [00:51:49] Yeah, those are good. But when I was there a few weeks ago, I was with my kids. We've got a 17 year old, a 14 year old and then a friend and his son who was 13. And I was talking to Abby last night and she was saying she was going to Coney Island today. And I said, look, so how do you kind of compare that to Disney? And she was pretty lukewarm on our last Disney experience. Like the Ride of the Resistance is really great, the new Star Wars ride. And after that, like, we had a nice time. Actually, you know, it wasn't worth it. We drove fucking forever. We sat in traffic, we couldn't get to the parking lot, couldn't get out of the parking lot. The reality is, you know, if my kids really wanted to go back, I would, but that also might have been my last Disney trip until I have grandkids.
Howard Wolfson [00:52:31] So it pains me to hear that. It hurts my heart.
Bradley Tusk [00:52:35] If you ever do have a Jungle Cruise ride that you're operating, I will go.
Howard Wolfson [00:52:39] Thank you. I would hope you go. I would hope you go more than once. I think that 17 is really not the sweet spot for Disney. I think it is really an ideal place...
Bradley Tusk [00:52:52] 17 if you're like taking acid and going to the Tiki Room.
Howard Wolfson [00:52:54] So I'm going to admit something you've done that I don't know if I told you. I went this past year with a friend who is my age.
Bradley Tusk [00:53:05] Without kids.
Howard Wolfson [00:53:06] Without kids.
Bradley Tusk [00:53:06] That's questionable behavior.
Howard Wolfson [00:53:08] I am not ashamed of it.
Bradley Tusk [00:53:10] That's why I'm first learning of it now. I talk to you every single day.
Howard Wolfson [00:53:15] I think others knew about it. You may not have been paying attention, but I, and I make no bones about it, I'm not ashamed. I would do it again. In fact, we're talking about another trip next year.
Bradley Tusk [00:53:25] What was the single best thing? The last thing. If you're going to Disney, so we like to end our Tuesday podcast Hugo asking me for a recommendation, a Howard Wolfson Disney recommendation is how we're ending.
Howard Wolfson [00:53:39] Jungle Cruise.
Bradley Tusk [00:53:40] There you go. All right. Howard, how do people learn more about all the work together in Bloomberg Philanthropies?
Howard Wolfson [00:53:46] You know, I would really recommend Mike's op-ed in The Wall Street Journal that kind of sets out a little bit of our thinking around education reform. We will definitely be making more news around this Career Tech Pathways Initiative, and we're really, really excited about it.
Bradley Tusk [00:54:02] Thanks for joining us.